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EU defence reforms won't immediately help Ukraine: Former top NATO official Camille Grand The EU’s proposed defence reforms are not going to make a difference to Ukraine in the short term, warns Camille Grand, NATO's former assistant secretary general for defence investment. Both the European Defence Industrial Strategy (EDIS) and the European Defence Industry Programme (EDIP) "are going to be very useful in the longer term, provided that the money comes in 2028, which is more or less the cycle that the EU is announcing", Grand tells Talking Europe. He talks about Ukraine's ammunition shortage – a subject on which he put forward a 10-point plan at the European Council on Foreign Relations, where he is distinguished policy fellow. We also discuss how NATO has evolved since the start of the war, and the ways in which, according to Grand, NATO and the EU can – and should – work together more closely.